David speaks with David Belle, the founder of Macrodesiac and Director of Growth at TradingView.
We talked about:
The psychology of traders and what makes investors like Warren Buffet so successful. We also talked about emerging trends in crypto and web3, and high leverage skills to build in your career.
Listen in your favourite podcast player 🎙
Watch on Youtube 📹
Connect with David Belle:
Twitter: @davidbelle_ @macrodesiac_
Why most retail traders lose money [6:42]
How success leads to destruction [7:54]
Why Warren Buffet is a great investor [10:02]
The magic of financial markets people often overlook [29:14]
Why the crypto trend isn't going away [48:02]
How overlapping your skillset makes you powerful [51:51]
The biggest skill differentiator is... [54:38]
The one thing you need to take an unconventional path [56:57]
Mentioned in the show:
Schumpeterian creative destruction
David Elikwu FRSA is a serial entrepreneur, strategist and writer. David is the founder of The Knowledge, a platform helping people learn more and live better.
- Twitter: @Delikwu / @itstheknowledge
- Newsletter: https://theknowledge.io
- Website: https://www.davidelikwu.com,
- Podcast: http://plnk.to/theknowledge
David Belle: [00:00:00] it's quite funny when people say to me, oh yeah, I wanna learn to trade. One of the things that I say to them is, okay, what does your passive portfolio look like? And they say, oh, I, I don't have one. And it's like, well, you're expecting to beat the stock market.
But you know, you haven't got the basics sorted out yet
David: Hey, I'm David Elikwu and this is The Knowledge. A podcast for anyone obsessed with learning more and living better. In every episode I speak with successful people from a variety of backgrounds to unpack everything they've learned about navigating the world around us. This week.
I'm speaking with David Belle, the founder of Macrodesiac, and Director of Growth at Tradingview. We talked all about the psychology of traders on what makes some investors like Warren Buffett so [00:01:00] successful. We also talked about emerging trends in crypto and Web3.
And we talked about some of the highest leverage skills that you can build in your career. You can get the full show notes, the transcript and my newsletter at theknowledge.io. You can find David online on Twitter @Davidbelle_ and join his awesome trading group at macrodesiac.com.
If you love this episode, please engage with it. Subscribe, share it with a friend. And most importantly, please don't forget to leave a review because it helps us tremendously to grow the show and reach other people. Just like you.
D Elikwu: So we were just talking about the gym and the fact that I pretty much haven't been since COVID like, I went the last day before lockdown and haven't been since I have tried to buy a bunch of stuff to use at home. So I've got like [00:02:00] an exercise bike. I got this big kettlebell thing. And at various points I have gotten like super engaged in using them. For two weeks or so, I'll use the exercise bike every single day.
And I've had a slightly bigger habit of walking, which has been good. But health wise I've been struggling for the most part.
David Belle: Yeah, no, I think there's many people in that boat, you know, over lockdown I think people became really apathetic and it obviously was difficult to work out over lockdown as well. You know, Like there's only so much that you can do at home before it becomes seriously, seriously boring.
Cause you can't really, you know, progress
or anything like that. But you know, the gym over the last
couple of months, I'd say last six, seven months has really, really become a regular staple of what I do. And almost like my identity, you know, I've, I've always kind of worked out, but it's been a lot less programmed than what I'm doing now.
And a lot kind of, you know, off the cuff, just doing bits here and there. Not really following anything, but I gave up drinking back [00:03:00] in October. Cause I think some bad habits were seeping in from over the lockdown period. And you know, it was just getting a bit sloppy and a bit too often and I wanted to knock it on the head back then. So I'm the type of person that I have to replace another behavior with something else. And obviously the upside to going to the gym is, is massive. So I replaced kind of that, that habit and my misses took a photo of me just today. This morning after I left, I was waiting in the reception and I was waiting for her to come out after stretching.
And I said to you before we started, like I I said, I looked good because when you, when you kind of see yourself day to day,
you don't necessarily notice that change. But then when some, when, when you look at it from someone else's perspective, like when you're just kind of standing there, not really
like focused on yourself and then they show you, it's like, wow, there's, there's actually been some progression here.
So you know, that gives you a massive boost as well to kind of keep going and
keep continuing when you do see some [00:04:00] positive change, you
D Elikwu: Yeah, it's really interesting. I think that is. definitely like a larger
topic in terms of the difference between how you see yourself and how others see you and how
that can be
a huge thing that can have loads of impacts
and, and loads of tail effects in different ways. I'm thinking at work or professionally, even
for example, like having a platform, I found it really interesting when I was
start starting to hit this transition point of me feeling like I just do a
bunch of stuff by myself and if I share information, that's just me sharing information. And then think that there, are actually other people on
the other side of that, that are actually taking on what you share and what you write and listening,
it's actually helping them in loads of
different ways. And I think that has been
a really interesting journey for me as
David Belle: Yeah,
no, absolutely. I, you know, as you said, that that ties
I think everything that you do, especially when you are trying to build
something, you know, it there's kind
of two types of reinforcement. I think that, come from that, there's
someone saying that they value something that you're doing[00:05:00] which obviously, you know, promotes the idea that you you've got a good business going on, but then there's all, so
the, I guess it comes down
ego as well.
If someone telling you that you're doing well at
something, and that they've valued, something that
you are doing is also.
part and parcel
of what, what, why I do what I do
as well, you know, in terms of setting up my business
But yeah, there's, there's so many different facets coming out of good positive reinforcement that I think
is really, really important for, for us as humans, you know?
D Elikwu: I think there's a real dichotomy there in two of the things you've just
mentioned, which I'd love to maybe dig into, you mentioned. Okay. So on one
hand, there's positive reinforcement. You're working out, you're taking care of your body, taking care of yourself. And on the other side
you mentioned ego. And I know that working in, trading
and stereotypically in the media, a lot of the portrayal
that we see of bankers and
traders are always these kind of, you know, Gordon Gekko or Patrick Bateman. You get a.
lot of these almost psychopathic portrayals of people that work in trading people that work in banking. What has
your [00:06:00] experience been like with that? And how do you kind of marry the two.
David Belle: Oh, it's definitely, it is definitely an industry where there are more
sociopaths and psychopaths. I think it's like statistically proven there's been a few studies on it that in, and especially sales and trading that there are statistically more psychopaths whether it's kind of pathological or not, or just kind of learned because it's, you know, a very male dominated sphere.
It's obviously high testosterone stuff like that, you know, pure competition.
And, and also there's the risk taking element, you know, where you need to be constantly on the ball and thinking, okay,
basically, am I allowed to swear?
D Elikwu: Yeah. Yeah, sure.
David Belle: The one thing that you keep in your mind when you're trading is who is f*cked and how can I cause the most pain?
So where is the pain point in the market? And that is really how markets move. You know, how, how can the market f*ck over the most people for the most amount of money, because what that translates to is [00:07:00] something known as liquidity. So the market is constantly trying to find liquidity. So if you translate that into the, the, the psychology of a trader, you purely have to be thinking to yourself, okay, how can I place my trade with the opportunity to really, really ruin other people?
And that sounds absolutely mental, but that is how the market works. And that's why most retail traders do lose money.
D Elikwu: That makes a lot of sense. Ah, there's so much to, to get into there. It reminds me of two things. So the end question that I wanna ask is the extent to which you think it's necessary, which definitely goes further on what you were just saying, but taking it a step back.
So two things that I'm currently writing about one is
this idea just into general of like what is necessary to be successful and what's necessary to get things done and not always in a
positive way. So I was thinking about four examples.
So if you take Warren buffet, Elon Musk
Bill Gates, and I think [00:08:00] one, one other line forgetting, but you take
like four of these people and you say, okay, what do they have in common? At some point they have all been like the richest man in history and they're all incredibly successful
made loads of money.
Built loads of amazing things. And then you look at maybe their family life and a lot of the other aspects of their personal life and you just see things falling apart. All of them have had divorces. All of them have had, you know, some kind of disarray of some sort. And it's just this really interesting question of, is this, is it the cause or the effect?
Is it the case? that you become successful, you make money, you get all these things, and then that causes you
maybe to, to change and to start acting in different ways or whatever happens, or is it just a necessity, an unfortunate
necessity that it's a certain kind of person that prioritizes work in an almost obsessive way that just happens to become successful.
And, and it it's only because you acted in this way that led to your success, [00:09:00] but then that same action and that same pathology also can lead to, you know,
destruction at the same time.
David Belle: I think that's a really, really strong question.
And it it's a tricky one because the, the names that you mentioned, Bill Gates, Warren buffet, and Elon Musk, I think they're very different personalities as well, even though they come to the same outcomes of being billionaires.
bill gates, I guess,
supremely, supremely intelligent
you know, he, he built Microsoft with, I can't remember who the other
Yeah, I can't remember, but, but he, he was the founder. Right. So kind of
besides the point I,
and so he built something new and was revolutionary. I think the same could be said of Elon Musk to an extent. I think his wealth is being boosted heavily by kind of meme stocks and stuff like that. So whether he could be declared a billionaire in, in the same, right, as bill gates is, is kind of different.
Elon Musk I think is very, very [00:10:00] ego driven, less so than, than bill gates. And then you've got Warren buffet who
in my eyes is actually very, very boring. And one of his best attributes is patience. I think that's, that's what he's renowned for, you know, Warren buffet,
He's able to hold a stock for decades and that's all he is done.
You know, his attribute is patience and that's how he's got rich. And it's quite funny when people say to me, oh yeah, I wanna learn to trade. One of the things that I say to them is, okay, what does your passive portfolio look
like? And they say, oh, I, I don't have one. And it's like, well, you're expecting to beat the stock market.
But you know, you haven't got the basics sorted out
yet, you know? And so, yeah, I, I think the interesting thing about all three of those is that they are very different people, even though they have the same outcome, I think they are absolutely obsessive about what they do. You, you kind of have to be, you have to be really, really obsessive and obviously that obsession.
Does come with the, the [00:11:00] drawbacks, you know, I guess time is, is one of the, the most important things that, that we can, we can have, you know, providing ourselves with time. And if you are that obsessive, then surely that degrades your time. And then as you mentioned, you know, divorces and stuff like that, women, I think they just love spending time with you.
And that's where their, their value of a partner really comes from.
And I think we can all be sometimes a bit as, as guys, we can be a bit
what's the word, maybe
ignorant perhaps of, of that fact,
you know, I, I, think there's a great quote where
someone said that men wanna be by themselves, but they don't wanna be alone if that makes sense.
I think in, in terms of in terms of, you know, the, the divorce situation, stuff like that, I think, yeah, there is an aspect of being too obsessive can affect your relationships in, in that way. So and also there's something there's gotta be something a little bit wrong with them if they are that obsessive, you know,
it's almost like , it's not necessarily like something negative.
But it's, it is almost a little bit autistic at the end of the [00:12:00] day. You know, if you are that obsessive throughout your whole life, it's like just pure focus on just this one thing. It's like, where's your burnout. You have to have, you know, a little bit of a, of a divergence from, from the norm. I'm putting that in, in in quotation marks there.
D Elikwu: Yeah.
no, I definitely agree. And, and that kind of goes back to what I was saying in terms of you just wonder if that's necessary and not in a, do you have to do it, but is this just a precursor for, to have that level of success? Because very often you do have to be some kind of like weird type of person or have this kind of obsession, an unusual obsession.
If it wasn't unusual, everyone would be doing it. If it wasn't unusual to like think a certain way and make certain decisions, then every person that has a business idea, every person that starts a startup would be equally resilient. They'd all make great decisions. Everything would go well. But clearly there is something about some of these people that leads them down a certain path leads to their success and it kind of [00:13:00] goes to, so another thing I was thinking about recently, I was listening to another podcast and there was this like.
Really successful army general. And he was talking about what he's learned and his advice. And he was giving, you know, the same thing that you hear from a lot of people that become successful, which is like, oh, you know, I only care about being a great grandfather and all of these things. And, you know, it's like people become successful and then suddenly, well, for some people, all that's important to them is, is their family.
But some other people become successful and all that's important to them is to continue perpetuating that success. But what I find interesting is that even for the people that then get to, I don't know, 50, 60 plus, and decide that the only important thing is their family. That is a realization that everyone comes to.
And it's something that well, all of those people within that box, but it's not their, that wasn't their attitude the entire way. And so again, I wonder if it's the case that you have to be wrong in order to get that right later on, because [00:14:00] it's. You find very few examples of people that didn't think that way, even at the beginning that were still able to maintain an even keel and still be successful while having the exact same values throughout.
David Belle: Yeah. I, I think though that there could be some, a little bit of a bias there because if you have already made it and then you turn 50 or 60, you have that opinion of, okay, now family's the most important thing. Purely because you have made it basically. So it's almost like a bit of survivorship bias.
Whereas there are people still in their sixties and even seventies that are still trying to make it, you know, inventors of certain things, you know, there's, there's certain business owners. I think the average age of a a self-made millionaire is like 46 or 47 or something like that. So people are still continuously trying to do that until they hit, you know, middle ages basically.
And then when you do make it, I guess you can take your foot off of the gas, but once you, once you have that, I think there, there comes a time where you have to [00:15:00] say, do I, do I still want more? Or can I change things so that my, my life now in terms of making money and, and having wealth isn't directly tied up in me having to actually do things to attain that wealth.
So I think one of the, the, the, the strongest examples of this is when you see angel investors, so I think many angel investors they tend to, you know, have, have had their startup and, you know, made money out of it. And then they, they decide to go into angel investing or seed investing because it is in fact less time consuming and they can still plan and say, okay, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be able to make money out of this while doing pretty much what I want.
Obviously there's the risk side of it. And the risk element. There are obviously some angel investors that don't make money as well. But I think, you know, as you do get older, you do, you do value your time more. And again, coming back to to my point about me stopping drinking, I think that was a [00:16:00] realisation as well, because.
I noticed that, you know, I'd be knackered the next day being hungover and all of this, and now my weekends feel almost never ending. Whereas I see people complain that, oh, no, Monday's around the corner now. It's like, I've had the last 48 hours pretty much doing what I want, you know, getting up early
still and, and having a full day to myself because, you know, I've, I've prioritized my own time over, you know, a couple of hours of feeling like I'm drunk basically, and, and having fun.
So yeah, I, I think I've, I've kind of made that change as well.
D Elikwu: Yeah, that makes sense. So let's dig into like exactly what you do and what your day to day looks like. So, So what are you working on at the moment?
David Belle: So I run Macrodesiac which is a research service for predominantly retail traders. But, you know, there's, there's people that find a lot of value in it from the professional sphere, from the institutional sphere. Surely because I talk as if, and this is quite ironic, [00:17:00] but I'm down the pub with a couple of mates after three beers.
You know, it is you're at that level of drunk where you can you can still talk coherently, but if you were to take it too complex, then you wouldn't be able to explain the, the, the different concepts. So it's basically taking this whole global macro thing that we have going on about the, the global economy and really trying to knuckle down into what the real points are like, what to prioritize.
And, and, you know, it is kind of like learning via osmosis. You read more of Macrodesiac you become more attuned to how things are moving, how the market moves, how different things relate. And then on the other hand, I work at trading view, which is the largest finance website in the world. It's pretty much on every crypto exchange.
Most brokerages use us now. And you know, I'm head of growth for the, for the UK at, at trading view. So that's a very eye opening experience as well. And there's probably something to mention there, you know, when, in, in terms of when you do become number one, one in the world, [00:18:00] like we're, I think we're like 56 largest website, not just in finance, but across the whole globe.
And it's like, okay, we've got to, I've got to this level now, do I now want to keep pushing or does it feel a bit boring? And that's, that's a battle that I've had with my, myself over the last couple of months. It's like, okay, I there's, there's a level now. I can't really go above here. And it's yeah, it's one of those, but it's a really, really great firm to work for.
It's fantastic as well, being the, almost like number one place that, that, that finance firms go to. To speak to you. Like you don't really have to do any, you know, outbound sales or anything like that. People literally come to you, which is very, very different from most people's experiences, especially in sales.
And everyone knows about us, which is mad. It's, it's honestly been a ridiculous two years being a trading view.
D Elikwu: That's awesome. I'd love to impact maybe your journey to getting there and what that was like. because what I'm really interested in is part of what you mentioned before, which is your attitude and demeanor and [00:19:00] kind of like what makes you maybe different from a lot of other like traditional finance people.
And so you have this unique background where you're able to talk a way that's quite authentic. It draws people to you. You're able to build a platform off the back of that, but I'd love to know maybe more about where that comes from. So was finance, always something that you thought you were destined to do?
David Belle: No I'll be honest when it, when it came to my a levels you know, I chose economics because. a few years before we'd had the great financial crisis and stuff like that. And I didn't really know enough about it. I think I must have been about how old 14, when the great financial crisis happened. Maybe a little, maybe a tiny bit older or maybe a year younger.
I can't even remember now. And you know, it, it was, it was kind of like, there were, there was some interest there, but it was never something that I would have said, oh yeah, from the age of 10, I want to be a trader or anything like that. You know? My, my parents, my mom works in the public sector. And my dad worked in retail, you know, for, for all of his life as a, as a [00:20:00] middle manager.
So it wasn't really like I was to that by my parents either, you know, neither of them went to uni, they wanted the absolute best for me. They wanted me to go to uni. And so I went to, I went and opened up my trading account at 18 after, you know, revising for a levels. Typing in the stock market, interest rates, all of this then obviously YouTube's algorithm found me said to me from a certain broker yeah, here's 10 grand for free to trade with, which is like fake monopoly money, right.
Demo trading. And I ran that up to like a million dollars in two weeks, which I thought I was from. I knew everything. It was like, come on. This is easy. Turned 18,
D Elikwu: Do you remember what you invested in
at the time?
David Belle: I, to have no clue, I, I didn't, I was, I was probably trading and clicking anything that looked a bit green.
D Elikwu: Yeah.
David Belle: So, you know, I, I had no idea what the currency symbols meant CHF for Swiss Francs what the hell is that?
Like, you know, it doesn't make sense. But yeah. Then put, I think [00:21:00] 1,200 pounds into a trading account. And lost it in a few days. And then I was like, okay, this is hard. Because the, the there's a big difference between being able to look at a demo account when it's not your money when it's not even real money and then actually having your money on the line.
There's no risk in the first one, there is risk in the second one.
And so the psychology behind that and the psychology of, of money especially in something as fast moving as financial markets. And at this time FX volatility was, was pretty damn high as well. So I was trading in a really volatile FX market, which was ridiculous.
And I didn't know about volatility and FX by the way. And so, yeah, it was just that psychology difference as well, which teaches you a lot, like so, so much. And that's even why today I say to people, oh yeah, there's, there's literally no point in practicing your trading on a demo account because firstly you're gonna overfit things.
Secondly, you know, that psychology of, of money simply isn't there, you know, [00:22:00] so it's, it's just useless. Went to university, absolutely hated it. I was debating with my lecturers about certain theories that they would they would promote such as QE being inflationary, which I said it wasn't because the market wasn't behaving like it was inflationary.
D Elikwu: Were you studying economics by the way?
David Belle: yeah. Yeah. So I went to susex university for economics. I absolutely hated economics. I didn't do very well. You know, I, I, I, I passed that barely. And I just found economics to be such a, a theory based subject. And when you look at, so what so many economists say and how wrong they are about things throughout my time there, I was just so apathetic about the degree.
Like I really, really hated it. so I kind of found in my head, look, I love financial markets. I don't like economics. I think that a lot of what is taught in economics is absolute bullsh*t. And I want to get into the industry, how do I do this? So I, I left [00:23:00] university. I went and a, a course that FX street and it was run by my good mate Gus Farrow who I didn't, I didn't know at this time.
But it sounded, sounded really, really interesting. So I went and paid for that. It was a couple of grand or whatever. I, I literally can't remember now. But the, the basis of me doing that was not necessarily for the content, but for the contacts okay. And I think that this is something that is really, really crucial, you know, bear in mind, I did sh*t at university.
Couldn't tell you half of the, the concepts, you know, coming out of university and the maths and all of that kind of stuff. I think statistics was probably the most important thing at university, which I did enjoy. But, you know, having those contacts and, and being able to then become a friend of, of Gus who was able to get me my first job at the brokerage he introduced me to the CEO of the brokerage.
You know, let me, I think in 2014 or 15, host my own show, talking about finance at, at the time, I think I spoke about[00:24:00] student debt in the us and how it was like a ticking time bomb. You know, you just let me go on and chat. I gave me a lot of confidence, especially when I was interacting with, you know, other guests who were more experienced than me, you know, 30, 40 years older, maybe.
And yeah, that, that opened my eyes up into, okay. There is, there is some parity, even though, you know, you don't necessarily have the right qualifications. It, it is just about being able to formulate actually your own ideas to get out there, to meet people, to chat people, and to be able to provide some value to them as well.
You know, one of the things that I like doing is, is if I see a post on LinkedIn and I, I then have a little quick look at someone's business, so I just drop a message and say, Hey, I like this, but do you think that X, Y, Z could be done better? And that's how you start to really, really formulate things.
Like just put little things in people's heads so that you get a [00:25:00] reply because those little replies add up, and then that's a contact. That's someone that you can chat to and, you know, potentially do business with, or can get you into somewhere later. And it sounds like I'm using people, but it's not because you're providing them with value along the way
D Elikwu: Yeah, there's a few really good threads I wanna pull on. So going, okay, let's go back to you opened that first trading account when you were 18, you, you know, you tried making some money, you lost it. Funnily enough, I had a very similar experience, so I studied economics. I, I did the IB, but the equivalent of a level.
So I economics and our economics teacher got us to enter like this trading. I think it was a competition where, but again with fake money. So I think very similar, I think you get 10 grand and you have to see how much you can make with it in a few weeks. And I think became second. So it was like this really great feeling.
And then when I started uni, I opened my first account and I, I lost a bunch of money as well.
but I'm interested to know. Did you continue trading, like [00:26:00] at that point or was it something where after you lost the money, did you kind of retract and, and step on the brakes a bit?
David Belle: Yeah, no, I continue trading, but I, I didn't make any money for the first two, three years, you know, at the end of the year. Because I think it's it is one of those learning curves where losing money. Actually allows you to learn more. And it's, it's funny at my first job at the, the retail brokerage.
One of the biggest things that I learned wasn't necessarily what people were doing, right? Because if you take that stat of of most retail traders losing money, one of the biggest things I learned was why they were losing rather than lot the good traders were doing right, because at the end of the day, everything's down to risk.
And if you're able to minimize that risk as much as possible by having a positive upside at the same time, then you're likely gonna come outta situations with positive, expected value. And you, that can be translated across everything. You know, it is just a mental mode and a [00:27:00] mental model, sorry, mental concept, just to have in your head, you know, if you can limit your risk on something while promoting a bit of a bigger upside.
Then, you know, it's, it's worth taking that trade basically. So, so yeah, I think that was that was a pretty key thing, but no, it's, it's never been the only period that I did stop was when I was approached to open up a brokerage London, and this was gonna be a payments firm and this was going on for nine months.
And I think it was the most depressing time of my life. Absolutely because it was stop start. No, it was closer to a year actually, because it was stop start the whole way. There was no clarity, the person I was doing it with, I thought he like a senior guy, like he's been around. He knows exactly what he's doing.
The final proposal that he came up with was complete dog sh*t. And at the, the end of it, the emails that came through were. basically saying from the, the main guy, like, why are you this far ahead? Like, [00:28:00] this is this, isn't what we planned. We only wanted to have an investigative thing. And I was like, you you've spent the last 12, 12 months of my life saying to me that we are gonna go ahead, you know, in the next three months, four months.
Oh yeah. I've had this chat. He, yeah, we're gonna go and do it. And honestly it came to the end and I was like, I've literally wasted so much of my time. I don't know what to do now. it was awful.
D Elikwu: What was motivating you throughout this period? Because I know that so a few different examples, one, you start trading, you lost of money, you did economics, you hated the actual subject matter, particularly because, and I, and I empathize, I know that economists really just planned for like an ideal model and an ideal scenario with perfect people, acting in a perfect way.
And reality is so different to that. It's almost unbelievable. So I'm really interested to know, like, what was the, clearly it might not have been just the opportunity to make money or, or maybe it was. But then also it's not necessarily the traditional subject matter in terms of how it was taught. And [00:29:00] then also then having this setback as well, in terms of trying to build something in the space and having that, not work out.
David Belle: Yeah. So I think the, the reason why I, I kind of persevered with, with trade. And I think that was your question. Anyway, I might have just misread that, but I, I really, really like people, like, I like talking to people and I like finding out about people and I think the market is the best way and the best.
I, I, I guess the best, what's the word for it? The best way to display what people are thinking as a whole, at a time, of course, they've changed a little bit of algorithms, algorithms and stuff like that, but it's the best way to show what is important in the economy. as a whole, because you've got so many different markets, you've got like, you've got gold, you've got equity markets, you've got Chinese equity market markets.
You've got debt markets. Like I, I just found it fascinating that all of these different things are so intertwined and people have an opinion about them. And [00:30:00] I'm on Twitter so much as Twitter is the best way of finding out about people and what their views are on the market. You can read all you want, you know, from Bloomberg, you can read headlines.
All of that. I can ask someone who's worked at Bridgewater, you know, senior PM at Bridgewater, what their thoughts are on the market. I wouldn't be able to do that by reading something somewhere else. And this is how I kind of collate a lot of my trade ideas is like, okay, who do I think at this time is wrong on this idea?
And there's so many tweets that I put out just to get a reaction from a certain type of person.
D Elikwu: Right.
David Belle: because if I get multiple, if I get many of those reactions or a like, or like a comment or someone says this, or like, yeah, I agree. I'm like, I know you you've been wrong loads before, so I know that I'm right.
Taking the other side of this trade, you know? So I think I, yeah, I, I, I just, I just really, really like people and trying [00:31:00] to understand people what they're thinking. And I just find it fascinating that the market is a, a collection of all of these different thoughts. So that's really what persevered, what, what kept me persevering with it.
But yeah, through that time with the brokerage, honestly, like there's photos of me and I couldn't recognize myself. I look, yeah. I, I, I really, really look bad, like skinny, like unkempt. Like if you could imagine waking up every day and your only your only real kind of positive thing is, is one guy saying to you.
A small update, like about the thing that we're working on. That is the only positive thing that I was having each day. And it was like being held on a string.
D Elikwu: mean, how did you,
how did you get to that point? was it he came to you with this opportunity and said, Hey, I've got this really good deal. Do you wanna get on, on it? And was there something you were doing before that, that you had to like,
give up or sacrifice to be part of this opportunity?
David Belle: Do you know what, I can't remember if I gave anything up genuinely can't remember now I think I just left the retail [00:32:00] brokerage I was working at. And I, I I'd been putting stuff out on LinkedIn and I think that's how he found me. I can't remember the lead up to it, to be honest. But yeah, that, that time I, I just, it was, it was just woeful.
It taught me a lot though. Firstly, it taught me that, you know, things take two, three times as long as as. as you expect them to, to happen if they do happen. Firstly and secondly, I think have someone that you, that is willing to share all information with you when you're both working towards the same goal, you know, someone that doesn't keep things to themself and, and, and do all of this, you know, I think that's really, really majorly important because it's very much anxiety reduction because, you know, I was young, this was a massive opportunity.
I was gonna be basically like a, a bloody COO or head of sales or something like this. And it was almost like he was a little bit patronizing with it by withholding certain things as if [00:33:00] I couldn't do it when I could. Cause I've done sh*t load of stuff before then. But yeah, it, that it, it was just an awful time and I never wanna go back there ever again.
D Elikwu: Fair. And was that your first time trying to build something new, like from scratch, because obviously now you've built Macrodesiac and you have this big platform. Was that the beginning of that journey or was this just another stepping stone,
David Belle: No. So I, I built David Belle FX dot com a couple, I think a year or two before then. That's when I really started like writing and doing research and stuff like that. There's a couple of really good posts that I like to revisit on there just to see how, how different my thought thought were back then and how the markets evolved.
And, and also like how much more I've learnt about certain things. Cause I read some of the posts and I'm like, that is totally f*cking wrong. And I, and, and if I were to see that from someone else, I'd, I'd probably chastise them. You know, I'd say, look, this is where you're wrong. That's where you're wrong.
Blah, blah, blah. So I've always wanted to sort of have my own [00:34:00] thing as well. You know, I've always wanted to, to build something because I, I feel like once you've, especially in the online age, once you've got something out there online, it kind of acts as a, as a conduit, the right word, a magnet probably is, is a better term for all future behaviors, you know, no matter where you go, if, if constantly updated, of course you can say, okay, this is what I've also got on the side.
You can see kind of what I'm like. It's almost like a CV at the end of the day, you know? And yeah, especially in the content realm like you are doing and, and I'm doing the more content that you can put out there that is good quality, like the world's your oyster, because these days, once you've got an audience, you know, you can monetize that.
And that's, that's what a lot of people care about. And I mean, one thing that I'm noticing in finance at the moment is the traditional asset managers , you know, they, they don't necessarily have an affinity with the younger crowd, even though the younger crowd are now massively involved in, you know, trading [00:35:00] and investing all of that kind of stuff.
So the likes of who was it? I think it was I've that's it Aberdeen asset management, they bought a firm called called Finimize because Finimize is, you know, between the ages of maybe 22 to 34 younger people, millennials, maybe even Gen Z, 'cause it gives nice snippets of information and they've they've bought them because they understand the requirement to now contact this younger generation so having an audience is, is massive.
Like the amount of stuff that you can do there is, is insane. Like even now I, I, I have a, a relationship with a media partner where if I post one of the the stocks press releases on Twitter. I get paid like 70, $80 for it, like, just from, just from posting a, just literally just from posting a, a thing, because I've got what, 42, 43,000 followers engaged audience, you know?
So yeah, audience is key these days.
D Elikwu: Yeah. I think there's, there's so many interesting things there. One, [00:36:00] I definitely agree with is just this idea of building content or building in public and putting stuff out there. And like you mentioned, it's this huge magnet for serendipity and other opportunities. And it's really weird because it happens even without you necessarily planning for it or actively trying to curate it.
Like, I think the more you put out there, the more people that think similarly get drawn towards you. And even people that think the complete opposite get drawn towards you. And, and sometimes that can create interesting things, but very often you just get not just opportunities, but I think it also leads to ideas, conversations, things that spark other things.
And there's so many things that you learn that become almost network effects just by connecting with people online. But then this also then leads to the other thing you were mentioning. And I'd love to understand your thoughts on what on earth is going on within the finance space, particularly like online, because obviously, like you mentioned, I think a lot of the like heritage. [00:37:00] Finance people are not really on social media. I can't imagine, you know, a VP just being on Twitter and tweeting, or at least, you know, like an, at an old school firm. Whereas now you have people like yourself, you have a lot of people. And particularly in VC, I see a lot. Maybe that's just because I work within startups, but people that are also serious people by day and that people that you should take seriously are also like engaging in memes, buying meme stocks, doing all this stuff.
Like how do you, first of all, like, what are your thoughts on that whole landscape? And then the second part is how do you differentiate the mess of the noise and the hype and the bubbles and all of the craziness that's going on from the actual work? Or are they actually inexplicably connected now?
Because as an example, you have like AMC that's now making money because they bought like a nickel company or, you know, they are a meme, stock buying other meme stocks, and you have companies that are able, and, and you mentioned, well, we talked about Elon Musk as well, who [00:38:00] has now been able to make massive tons of money by investing in Bitcoin, through his company, doing it personally in talking about doge coin and almost, I don't wanna say manipulating markets, but swaying them heavily.
David Belle: Yeah, I think with your first point about certain types of people being on. On Twitter. So there is a, there is a compliance issue where a lot of these guys all have to be anonymous. And so what that means is, you know, you're probably gonna be you, you might see like a CEO or someone really, really high up at these large banks or whatever actually being, you know, an account with 16 followers, just observing absolutely. There's algorithms
now that look at Twitter for sentiment. There's algorithms now that look at certain accounts for sentiment especially if you've got over 30, 40,000 followers and an engaged audience, because it's easier as a data point to just take that sample size rather than looking at the whole of Twitter itself.
D Elikwu: Just, just [00:39:00] to add to that, I remember, okay, this is now like a decade ago, but when I first started trading, I remember eToro. I always used to look at the the.
sentiment there, but there was no place where it really existed outside of that, which has now become what Twitter is used for. But go on
David Belle: absolutely. And those sentiment indicators, people tend to take them as, okay. If it's showing that everyone's, everyone's long, you should buy when really you should probably sell because everyone's long. And it comes back to that thing about the pain that I mentioned, you know, and how traders think is that what experienced traders think is that if all of these people are long, especially retail guys, we wanna punish them.
We wanna f*ck them over, basically. But yeah, to your point, your, your second point about kind of like the mean stock mania and stuff like that. I think, again, it comes down to understanding people because the types of people that would be, you know, buying AMC, buying GME, When it came to talking about actual serious topics, they would have absolutely no clue.
You know, certain [00:40:00] people have made money out of it. Absolutely. But would they be able to sustain that going forward? They might think that another stock is a meme stock when actually it goes down 90% and they lose all their money. So trading is absolutely a marathon, not a sprint. And why I respect Warren buffet so much because of his patience and his ability just to hold and his ability to pick quality over what the latest fad is.
Basically, I think, you know, he's long Coca-Cola, he's long, McDonald's he, you know, he's, he's a genius at what he does purely because he has the ability to be patient . So again, that's where Twitter comes in. Fantastic, because you're able to access so many different personality types to make a judgment as to what the overall market is thinking.
Again, it comes down to looking at that, that small sample size that you can extrapolate out to the broader market. Honestly, it's gotta be the most revolutionary tool in finance that, that is out there. Like, I, I cannot and people say, oh yeah, you're on Twitter [00:41:00] so much. How do you do this? But I'm literally looking for information constantly.
That's the only reason why I'm on there. Like, honestly, it's insane.
D Elikwu: yeah.
It's really interesting what you were saying about I think what it makes me think about is web three as well. And I think there's this really interesting idea where, okay, so there's two things. Maybe we'll get to this in a second, because there's another a question I wanna ask. But one part of it is the mass, maybe disenfranchisement of a generation of people where you had like boomers and previous generations where they could buy a house for a pack of chips and they could go to university for free and they got a lot of.
Essentially the building blocks to building wealth and they were able to go to Morgan Stanley and go to all these places and just work there for 17 years and build a great career without having to do much outside of that. And then you have a generation growing up now where you have like high ha housing costs, you have low wage growth.
And so there's a lot of people that maybe feel repressed and just want fast money. [00:42:00] They just want money. And so it's really interesting how you have that, but then what it leads to is that with crypto and with web3 there's an incredible opportunity to make money. And so people are actually making the money, even though.
They might not have like sound fundamentals. They haven't learned a lot about the markets. They haven't necessarily had to spend that time making mistakes and learning hard lessons. I mean, loads of people still do, but I think because of Twitter as well, that you also get echo chambers and you get a lot of survivorship bias where the only stories you see are every time someone tells an NFT for a ridiculous amount of money, there's no new story about like, okay, there are, but the, the new stories are not amplified where everyone loses their money.
Everyone loses their homes. Because we even saw that in the financial crisis in 2008, where you had these bankers that were just like making even bigger bets and losing out, but, and least they had long track records. They had a lot of thoughts and maybe they were wrong. Maybe they got [00:43:00] caught up in emotions, but I think what's happening now.
That's so interesting. I was reading a tweet this morning. That was talking about, oh, you know, someone that feels bad for people that only started trading in 2020, and they started trading like a year or so before that. And it's like, you have only known such a small window of not just the market and all of the possible things that can happen, but because people can make money, people can become called experts within a very quick period of time.
And as soon as you have, you know, 20, 30, 40,000 followers and you have some money, you are now a market leader in a way that you could never have been in a traditional market.
David Belle: Yeah, I think the, you touched on a really good point there about people that are talking about trading over such a short timeframe and becoming experts. The last two years of financial markets have probably been the easiest two years of anyone's lives ever been, because all you had to look at was the fed [00:44:00] was lowering rates to basically 0%, right.
Which provides liquidity to the market. There is nowhere else to put capital apart from, into equities and crypto in a, in a, a scenario like that. So there is no alternative. Everyone was just long because, well, it's the only thing to do. People are sitting at home stimulus checks coming through while getting unemployment and stuff like that.
Two grand, throw it into some stocks, you know, there's no real opportunity cost there to you. If you're still receiving your, your, your salary or like whatever, 80% of your salary, or however, however much it worked in the us. So you, you know, the, they don't have a broad view of what a bear market is like.
And this is the real issue it's like that we, we had the last Bitcoin bear market in 2017, 18, and people were carted out like it, it was just going sideways and down for ages and similar things are gonna happen here. So it's like, if you don't cash out at the top [00:45:00] and just leave it then for a couple of years, until it has dipped and then you get back in, or you do get short and managed to ride that whole wave down, which is also risky.
Of course, because you can have sharp bear market rallies, which take you out as well. Then you're gonna blow up. You know, so this is one of the big the big problems going forward. And actually there was a, there was a note released by Zoltan Posar of credit suisse just 2, 3, 3 weeks ago.
And he basically said that the fed was looking to hike rates so that they could burst this meme stock bubble, completely get people back to work, I think is a bit of a crazy idea, but I see where he is going with it. I think he was being a bit exaggerated, get people back to work and to stop the kind of short term trading like that crazy mania mania.
It's probably some some validity behind it, but I think the real thing behind that was to burst the housing bubble. So people didn't feel as wealthy to make them feel a little bit more insecure and to get them back to work as well.
The housing market at [00:46:00] the end of the day is the wealth effect, right?
If you've, if your house has gone from 800 grand to 1.2 million or something in two years, you know, you are gonna be like, wow, I'm rich now, you know, let's go get more, let's go get more financing. Let's, let's remortgage the house and go and, you know, start a business or something. But obviously that contributes massively to inflation.
And if inflation's already elevated, you know, you don't really want that. And that's the whole point of what the Fed's doing. They really just want credit to slow down a little bit. So activity drops, demand drops, and inflation comes down.
D Elikwu: So, where do you see this going? Like, what do you think happens
next? Because in my mind, I, I genuinely don't know. Is it a case that everyone needs to get wiped out kind of, you know, 2017, 2018 times again, but I, again, I think it's different now because you have really, I mean, like crypto has been rebranded as web three, but web three is now
becoming quite different just because you have additional layers, you have like, DAOs you have all of these other [00:47:00] layers of people putting money to work in slightly different ways that are layered on top, which are. I don't wanna say unsafe, but just like we talked about before, you have people that became experts overnight because they had some followers and they had some money and they are now creating decentralized organizations that are floating millions. Some of them, they get hacked, people lose money, you hear all kinds of crazy stories about things happening, but there's such a strong bull sentiment.
And, and again, I think it's also a generational thing where the vast majority of these people are extremely young. Is it a case that people kind of need to take that hit? And, and in some ways it's not as negative while they're young because they still have time to make it back. Or do you think that there might just be so many layers of like additional things that are on top now?
Like you have like level two crypto level three, all of these additional things. DAOs so some things that are not as strongly tied to traditional money markets that [00:48:00] this trend just continues going at the same pace.
David Belle: I think the trend will continue. Absolutely. It's not going away. It, I think it's just the, the, so the thing, the thing with me that I see is that first in 2017, well, before 2017, probably the period, 2015 to 20 17 18, we had all the ICOs cropping up. And I feel like a lot of these innovations in crypto are ICOs just with different marketing and slightly different compositions.
Right. We need something new to keep the, the market going and there's validity behind a lot of them. I guess if you look at the Pareto principle where, you know, 80% of outcomes come from 20% of the inputs, it kind of follows, you know, especially with the, the stock market as well. The similarities there where, you know, small amount of stocks can contribute to 80% of the moves in the market.
It's kind of like that where you separate the wheat from the chaff where there, when there is downturns, you know, you, you, you kind of [00:49:00] have the good cryptos that have survivability and longevity
that come out from bear markets because there's still desire to be involved in them. So I think that's why bear markets are good, especially in the market like crypto, where there are limited barriers to entry, you know, there's, you could start investing in crypto with a hundred bucks
if you wanted to. Whereas with stocks, it might be a little bit trickier, right?
And so, yeah, I think there's,
I, it is called Shumpeterian creative destruction. It's by Shumpeter who came up with this, that when things, you know, go bad, you basically get the,
the, the Phoenix rising from the ashes, you know, and they're the companies, or they're the cryptos that you wanna stay long.
D Elikwu: Sure. How do you balance, I guess the competing
because okay. You work for trading view in some ways, your kind of. Part of the market in the market. You're also trading on the market personally yourself. And then you've also built Macrodesiac which is this community of people that are learning about the market and trying to get in.
Meanwhile, there's all this chaos [00:50:00] that's going on behind the scenes of
people pumping and dumping different kinds of stocks. Like how do you
balance your own one, maybe internally your own priorities in terms
of where your allegiances lie and, and how you
stay faithful to some of these competing,
Competing ties on your attention, but then also how do you manage it from a community level with, and you can talk maybe about more, how you've built Macrodesiac and, and what the process was like, but then,
you know, how does that come community look now from a sentiment
perspective com compared to maybe the broader
like finance Twitter
David Belle: Yeah. Sure. So in terms of competing interests, I, I, I think personally I'm very, very lucky to be where I am being able to work at trade in view, being able to trade and being able to run Macrodesiac. I work from home a lot of time going to the office sometimes. But they're all interlinked.
So if I'm doing something for Macrodesiac, it links into my own trading.
That link is that if I'm putting something out for other people.
I [00:51:00] have to do my due diligence as best possible for my own trading. Because I trade my own ideas. I don't trade often maybe have like 10, 11 trades a year, but they're big ideas.
They're big meaty ideas, you know? And so that's, that's how that operates and then with trading viewers very similar, you know, I, I can almost be a consultant on specific market matters for trading view. I know how to speak with brokers, for example, which are our B2B clients. I can interact with the users
well. I can start conversation based off of things that I've done for Macrodesiac or based off of things that I'm looking at in the market. So they're all complimentary and it comes down to, again, that, that factor of time, I think, because if I'm working on one thing, it benefits the other two. So it, it, it kind of, you know, gives me more time just by doing that, if that makes sense.
D Elikwu: Yeah.
that definitely makes a lot of sense. It ties very strongly to something I was talking about quite recently, which is this idea of just trying to overlap your competencies and [00:52:00] making sure that there is that crossover between the different things that you do, because I've definitely felt that the positives and negatives of that for myself, like I was working in law, running a bunch of different businesses.
And I think times where you end up the most stressed is when there's the biggest divergence between the different kinds of things that you're working on and the skills that you need to apply. So at one point like I'm working in corporate law in the finance team. Okay. I'm, I'm consulting for some startups and
I'm consulting for some startups, but I'm also consulting for like media businesses because I do photography and I'm going to like fashion events and I'm doing that whole side of things. And then simultaneously I'm running a travel business and I'm using all my annual leave to do that. And it's this confluence of like very different skill sets and very different context that you need to switch to.
And the switching costs becomes higher. The less aligned those things are. Whereas I think maybe for you, because they're super aligned, there's a lot smaller of a switching cost for almost none where you are really being yourself and using the same [00:53:00] information and the same knowledge you have, but in some of these different contexts
David Belle: Yeah, no, that's, that's exactly it. And you know, I think being able to structure your, your other projects in that way, whereby it doesn't, there's no interference only kind of, of complimentary that that's not the right word to use, but they, they both basically compliment all, all things that you do compliment each other.
It's the way to an easier life. I think.
D Elikwu: Before I let you go. And this is really, I wanna kind of tie together a few of the things that you mentioned, because it seems like a big underlying thread is people and being able to work with people, being able to understand what people are thinking. And that seems to be a massive underlying factor to a lot of the success that you've had.
And a lot of the fields you've been able to transition through through a lot of these different experiences. And I'm interested to know what you think are some of the other like massive parts of the skillset. Cause I know we had a conversation the other day we were talking about sales and then also just now [00:54:00] you're talking about this element of maybe patience as well, where
I think only making 11 or 12 trades a year. runs very antithetical to what a lot of people think about when they hear about people that are trading. Because they're thinking about day traders. They're thinking about people that are sitting there all day, clicking on their computer. It goes up, you buy, it goes down, you sell, you do this, you do that.
There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of mess. Like how
does one, I guess your view differ to that? And two, like what are the biggest bits of skillset that you think that you have either
had naturally or needed to pick up in order to be successful at the things that you do?
David Belle: So I, I think on, on I'll get to the, the trade in frequency bit after, but I think the biggest things naturally are to be able to, to recognize that knowing your topic is really, really important. Like I've dedicate, I literally read and try to understand constantly about, you know, finance markets, whatever.
Like if there's something that I don't [00:55:00] necessarily understand. I don't mind putting my balls on the line, especially on Twitter and, and, and say, in my opinion, waiting for someone who's actually experienced in it to say, no, you're wrong because I find, I learn way, way better trying to work out why I'm wrong than trying to say, maybe why I'm right.
If that makes sense. Like, I, I always want to question, you know, my view on whether I'm wrong. I, I, I, it's almost like I don't care about being right. I'm always looking for the pitfall of of the wrongness, if that makes sense, because once you're able to do that, you're able to then venture into more inquisitive conversations and trying to understand things a little bit deeper, rather just having your opinion and then throwing it out there.
And I think that that's something that really enables you to get into conversations with people that are more experienced, because you tend to find that most people don't want to do this. Most people want to correct. And most people want to put their opinion forward. So [00:56:00] when you've then got an expert who's high up in a certain position at a certain place, who's telling you no, you're wrong.
That is just an entry into a conversation. Right? So that, that is, that is one thing I think is it's very tactical. It's necessary to be tactical about the conversations that you have in your career and how you go about them. And how to open, how to get people to open up. Because I think a lot of people are very, very nervous about speaking to people with more experience than them, when really shouldn't be, they're just like you, they were, they were the same as you at one point, you know, but conversations are literally the way to get contacts the way to learn more.
And, and really the it's kind of like communication is the whole human being, right. It's like, if we weren't able to communicate, then what really are we? We we're just like animals. So I genuinely enjoy talking with people. That's, that's the thing. And I think that that opens up a whole host of opportunities.
D Elikwu: Yeah.
I definitely agree. I think it's been exactly the same for me in my journey as well. And I think particularly [00:57:00] if you want to have the opportunity to take an unconventional route, whether whether you need to or not. I think having that optionality, that just comes from making connections and making friends and talking to people, even if those opportunities are not immediately relevant.
Because another thing you mentioned before, it's not about using people and it's not about thinking, oh, what do I want to get out of this person right now? But it's about if I make this friend today, it could be like 2, 3, 4 years from now. They need something from me or I need something from them. And that will just add value to the relationship.
And it's almost as though some of the favors that you trade. And I think this is maybe something that people miss, because people are looking just at the next opportunity and just for what they might need from. A relationship or an engagement. Whereas I think at least in my view, if you take a much longer view, then it's almost like each ask or each engagement actually should strengthen the relationship and it should be a continuous thing.
So even if I do need to ask for something, or even [00:58:00] if you need to ask for something, that's not that doesn't need to be the end of the chain. And sometimes you can even preemptively offer a favor
to keep that, that chain going and keep that going.
David Belle: Yeah. It's about, you know, many people might consider that to be using, but you've gotta genuinely like people, like I see people say, oh yeah, I don't wanna go out with my work colleagues. I'm just here to work. I'm like, you're not gonna get very far. You're really, really not gonna get very far. Like that is not how you should behave.
You know, if you do want to get far, then you've gotta open yourselves up to opportunities and open yourselves up to loads of different types of people. especially your work colleagues. Alright. If you're working at, you know, I guess a, a bit of a dead end. Job or dead. End's not the right word, but if you're working at somewhere, you don't really wanna be, you're just literally doing it for the salary.
Just for now, I like to use the word for now. It's like a kind of stepping stone to something else then fine. But when you're actually in a proper career and you might, you might be low down in, in the chain, you [00:59:00] know, just going into work and doing that is, is enough, you know, is really, really not enough because you're just missing out relative to other people, you know, who would go out and put themselves out there.
And it, it doesn't mean going out and getting pissed five nights of the week, but it just means being there being present, being able to, you know, offer a helping hand when it's needed, because it'll be noticed.
D Elikwu: Yeah. I mean maybe to close the loop completely on this conversation, because I think this very much goes back to what we were talking about initially. Right? We were talking about people with different personality types, the kind of person that you have to be to survive in different environments. What would you say maybe is kind of the one thing that you need to learn or the one thing that you need to exhibit in order to be relatively successful?
David Belle: I think a sales ability for sure. Because if you've got an ability to, to allow people to get on board with what you are doing, then, you know, you can start [01:00:00] from absolutely nothing and, and build something, you know, it comes down to okay. Getting funding on board, you know, it comes down to convincing someone to hire you.
At the end of the day, that's what an interview is. You're persuading someone to hire you. And on that point actually about interviews, one of the things that I know is that people just go through the motions of an interview, whereas really what you want to happen is you, you don't want to be talking about yourself about the job or really about anything to do with the proposal of hiring you.
You wanna be talking about and asking questions about them. Because the second they're, they're willing to answer questions about themselves. They're open to you. You know, there, there's obviously gonna be certain things that you have to answer about the job, but most of the time, all you want to do is turn an interview to a conversation.
and that is, you know an adequate sales skill, an important sales skill as well. You know, turning things around so that they're [01:01:00] open to you and that people are open to you. I think absolutely that is, that is the number one that I would say is to develop a sales skill and it doesn't necessarily have to be the same the same way that I would do things.
There's certain people that are very methodical in their sales, which is literally like, just. Asking questions consistently, you know, being silent to make a, an awkward time at which someone then has to answer, because no one likes silence when you're just sitting there in a conversation. Someone wants to say something right.
But developing a way to be able to sell because it covers everything covers absolutely everything. So that be my, my number one. Absolutely.
David: Thank you so much for tuning in. Please do stay tuned for more. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. It really helps the podcast and follow me on Twitter feel free to shoot me any thoughts. See you next time.[01:02:00]